Curse

Amy Awien · Dec 18, 2007, 04:58 PM // 16:58

Quote:

Originally Posted by Wakka

So from that 600hp, to get down to 450ish you have to be carrying 2 Sup runes, which if you ask anyone who knows anything about equipment, thats overkill!

There are also Radiant insignia's (or the AL ones), Runes of Attunement and there are other bow grips then the Fortitude version. The survivors insignia and fortitude bowgrip account for 70 HP,

Quote:

Fair enough if you had of said you replace Survior Insignias with something that ups your armour? And maybe run an armour mod on your bow I could understand where your coming from, but your not lol

I've nowhere stated I'd favor taking two superiors, that is your own assumption. For a very long time druids - now radiant - has been the 'standard' armor for rangers. If you don't specify differently, I'd normally assume Druids/Radiant.

Wakka · Dec 18, 2007, 05:01 PM // 17:01

Quote:

There are also Radiant insignia's (or the AL ones), Runes of Attunement and there are other bow grips then the Fortitude version. The survivors insignia and fortitude bowgrip account for 70 HP,

Wouldn really advise Radient or Attunement to be honest. 25 energy is plenty, just manage it well. Or if you need an extra bit bring a bow with +5 energy.

IGN - Almighty Wakslag.

On all night 2moro, show me a HM dungeon with 450 hp please

That should prove if it works or not. Ok?

Amy Awien · Dec 18, 2007, 05:28 PM // 17:28

Quote:

Originally Posted by Wakka

This is getting a bit tedious

The balance between health loss and health gain is central to the game's mechanics. Ultimately a team wins because it can damage more then it's opponents can heal, while at the same time being able to heal better then the opponent can do damage.

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Thats not true. Having 150hp on each member in your team is an additional 1200hp between your party.

Extremes again, it's 800 at 100 HP each or 40 HP at 50 HP each. It sounds like a lot but compared to roughly 4000HP total HP in your team it's less dramatic.

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And its down to the healing (and prot) of your monks?

Yes, In a drawn fight at least it's down to that and the offensive power and those of the opponent.

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Are you telling me the entire time you've played the game that you have never been pressured to a full wipe without making a tactical mistake?

What do you mean, tactical mistakes are the more common cause for wipes (I've said as much) and more initial health doesn't counter that. How do you think more health is going to help when under pressure?

Wakka · Dec 18, 2007, 05:38 PM // 17:38

Jesus Christ quote wars

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The balance between health loss and health gain is central to the game's mechanics. Ultimately a team wins because it can damage more then it's opponents can heal, while at the same time being able to heal better then the opponent can do damage.

I meant repeating myself was tedious.

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Extremes again, it's 800 at 100 HP each or 40 HP at 50 HP each. It sounds like a lot but compared to roughly 4000HP total HP in your team it's less dramatic.

800 - 1200 is still a lot of HP. 800 is 20% of your current health. It is quite dramatic actually.

Quote:

Yes, In a drawn fight at least it's down to that and the offensive power and those of the opponent.

If you base all your outcome of battles on the performance of your monks I really really doubt you know the game at all.

Like I said, we can do a dungeon 2moro at 450HP and see how we get on? It can be the be all and end all of this discussion/argument? If you know your right this shouldn be a problem.

Amy Awien · Dec 18, 2007, 05:49 PM // 17:49

Quote:

Originally Posted by Wakka

Jesus RED ENGINE GRED ENGINE GOhrist quRED ENGINE GOte RED ENGINE GRED ENGINE GOars

I don't understand what you're saying.

Aris the Accurate · Dec 18, 2007, 05:55 PM // 17:55

I will make one last attempt at this.

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800 at 100 HP each or 40 HP at 50 HP each. It sounds like a lot but compared to roughly 4000HP total HP in your team it's less dramatic.

400x8=3200
150 more hp per party member means each member has 550
550x8=4400

so yes..1200 more hp party wide. It sounds like alot because it is alot. more hp helps when under pressure because instead of dying from 4 hits you would die from 5 (for example). It takes an extra second for that 5th attack. a huge ammount of life saving healing can be done in that brief second allowing you to stay alive, which means time your party isnt spending useing rez sig. time spent not rezzing=time applying pressure to other team. To put it in another,though harsher, format...

Say you are in a gvg (back before the nerf to lod). You are a ranger on your gvg team. Enemy monk goes to use lod. for some reason you miss it (could be lag,blind,whatever). That missed interupt means less pressure on the backline. less pressure on the backline means the opposing team can push harder. Opposing team pushing harder means unneccessary pressure on your monks. This pressure can result in forcing your team to fall back or take unneccessary deaths. While it might not be apparent to your team that the deaths were your fault, the fact is every second not spent performing your role is time wasted.

to sum it up

The Butterfly Effect.

Quaker · Dec 18, 2007, 06:03 PM // 18:03

The simple fact is - there is no "best" ranger build for PvE, and I doubt there is one for PvP either. As can be seen by the length of the discussion here, everyone has their own ideas about what is best, but it really depends upon your own playstyle, the skills you have available to you, and the make-up of the rest of the party.

For example, I could post my current PvE build here, but it wouldn't mean that much since it's designed to be used with other rangers (usually heros). (Actually, I did post it in the thread about B/P rangers.)

Wakka · Dec 18, 2007, 06:13 PM // 18:13

Wow what happened to my post? :s

Didnt use any "bad" words lol :s

Amy Awien · Dec 18, 2007, 06:37 PM // 18:37

I don't know, whatever you've removed, it's normal now.

Healers are part of most teams, and yes, the outcome does depend on them, you'd most certainly fail most of the time without them, since they're the ones that replenish your hp-bar when you take damage. Or would you say otherwise?

I'll decline your offer since I think it's unreasonable to expect you to do your best to support my point and counter your own.

Lourens · Dec 18, 2007, 08:16 PM // 20:16

health isnt that important in pve then it is in pve but in pve i was spiked once by 4 afflicted elementalists using mind burn

1 thing to mention is today i was doing zen daijun hardmode and the "rit boss" with spirit rift did 550dmg on my casters "60AL" , its always nice to have a buffer

Wakka · Dec 18, 2007, 10:38 PM // 22:38

Quote:

Healers are part of most teams, and yes, the outcome does depend on them, you'd most certainly fail most of the time without them, since they're the ones that replenish your hp-bar when you take damage. Or would you say otherwise?

Yes but theres more to staying alive than just the healers is what im trying to say.

As for the Dungeon, I dont see why not? Im not petty and I would give it my best I woud even run the build you wanted at 450 hp

Amy Awien · Dec 18, 2007, 11:37 PM // 23:37

It would have to wait for me to finish EotN, I bought it yesterday. Meanwhile, nothing keeps us from trying the other side, you with <500 HP, or me with substantially more then 500HP. Not sure if it should be with the same skills, or really adapted to a build.

Another test track could be to do this on a hero, they wouldn't be influenced by the goals of the test, as we would likely be. Would be cheaper on runes too, as they can be salvaged without risk from hero-armour. One could just count the deaths with different health setups for the hero, or heroes. And it would be easier to reproduce the tests and the results.

Wakka · Dec 18, 2007, 11:42 PM // 23:42

Yes I think im ging to do some H/H runs to Slavers Exile and see how much DP + deaths I come out with on the end of each and also the time completed (as the low HP has higher attribs, the damage output shoud be higher so should burn through the mobs quicker).

We will see.

gw_poster · Dec 18, 2007, 11:54 PM // 23:54

[QUOTE=Amy Awien]It would have to wait for me to finish EotN, I bought it yesterday.[QUOTE]

There's your reason. She probably just finished the snowman dungeon

Clarissa F · Dec 19, 2007, 01:00 AM // 01:00

An aside....if you come in with low hp, and keep dying, as a monk, I leave your sorry a$$ and keep the rest of the team alive. Alot easier to keep them healed/prot'ed, since they were smart enough to give themselves durability. If it's between you and a warrior that keeps a lot of aggro off the back line(aka me), or a necro/ele putting out damage/degen....enjoy pushing daisies. One of the things any character, other than a 55, should have is high baseline durability, eg health. Screw any convoluted arguments of damage/breakpoints/...blah blah blah; it's common sense to protect yourself as much as possible.

Rangers never need sup runes other than vigor. The only major is maybe Expertise. Other than that, build-wise, I usually go [skill]distracting shot[/skill],[skill]savage shot[/skill], evasion skill(usually low-cost), [skill]troll unguent[/skill], res. The only time I might use the secondary is for conditional/damage like splinter barrage, since [skill]barrage[/skill] was buffed. Usually I go with [skill]poison arrow[/skill], [skill]kindle arrows[/skill] for degen, or [skill]punishing shot[/skill] for the chaos it creates interrupting everyone and their mother. [skill]broad head arrow[/skill] is usually par corps for caster bosses.

Monk skills aren't worth it, as you should be in the back line/mid-line, and if you are in a situation where you can't get out and use Troll's to heal, you or your monks screwed up. Get Dunk a better build.

Amy Awien · Dec 19, 2007, 07:32 AM // 07:32

Quote:

Originally Posted by gw_poster

There's your reason. She probably just finished the snowman dungeon

By attacking me or my experience you admit to not having any argument in the discussion. You're just a cheap lowlife, you hang around and wait until you can make some remark that you think is oh so clever. Have you added anything useful to this discussion? Any discussion? No, I didn't think so.

gw_poster · Dec 19, 2007, 04:13 PM // 16:13

Quote:

Originally Posted by Amy Awien

By attacking me or my experience you admit to not having any argument in the discussion. You're just a cheap lowlife, you hang around and wait until you can make some remark that you think is oh so clever. Have you added anything useful to this discussion? Any discussion? No, I didn't think so.

I'm sorry, you're right, I was absolutely trolling this one...but I've read all of the posts in this thread and besides going horribly off-topic, you've obviously decided to argue your point to the death so there is no point in arguing about it anymore. I just couldn't take it anymore, I'm not one who jumps into a lost argument, because the point has already been made, but you gave away a huge clue regarding your ignorance of the dungeons and the reasons for high hp there. I felt compelled to say something. You, and you alone are the only one who seems to think that running around in a dungeon with 450 hp is a good thing (how's that going btw?). So whatever, if you survive, more power to you. But I would recommend stacking your materials for powerstone purchasing.

If you could post a build, or your specs, and actually contribute reasons as to why your low hp (ad populum) is more beneficial than high, I think we might all learn from it. Otherwise, you seem to be the one who is inciting the flames and not contributing. True, I may be a "low-life", but it's not because I posted that comment, and for you to assume that I am, then aren't you doing the same thing you claim everyone else is, which is to contribute to the giant 'red herring' that you've helped to create? Now then, instead of using this forum to practise the art of logical argumentation, try contributing something useful.

Amy Awien · Dec 19, 2007, 05:00 PM // 17:00

If people had limited themselves to a more objective discussion of the topic rather then getting personal or dogmatic there'd have been a lot less distracting posts overall.

I've used builds speccing 14/12/12, using 3 majors accounts for -105 HP and the hp-runes can give back 70 HP. That would leave some 445 HP and without the bowgrip or the Survivors insignia that is what it ends up with. I didn't die any more then I did with higher HP, less probably, probably due to the heroes and less dependency on PuG's.

Not so long ago the Dogma was to spec 16 (12+3+1) in Marksmanship, anything else was unspeakable. Now apparently the Dogma is to have 550+ HP. Whatever.

Wakka · Dec 19, 2007, 07:40 PM // 19:40

You would actually have an additional point, remember your head gear.

Base HP 480.
3 Major runes minus 105, grand total 375
HP Runes (actually its 60hp, 1 sup vig and 1 vitae) add on 60hp, grand total 435.
5 Survivor Insignia's are 40hp, grand total 475.
Bow Grip, perfect I suppose, makes it up to 505hp.

Meaning you've been arguing your point for ages now and you play with more than 500hp?

Moonlit Azure · Dec 19, 2007, 07:45 PM // 19:45

Well, everyone has their own playing styles, so one build will not certainly fit all, will it not?

I usually play at around 475 hp. I don't usually die. I play pretty carefully and interrupt most of the enemies attacks(the spellcasters) so the damage is greatly reduced.

I also h/h in PvE so I carefully choose my team.

If its a party of 8, its 2 monks. 1 has to be prot with aegis.

I then have 3 tanks, 2 spellcasters, and a miscellaneous that can support a double role, like a ritualist.